#198 – Should sales-led organisations be spending more on marketing? w/ Eddie Guevarra

 

 

Full episode transcript: 

​Please note that transcription is done by AI and may contain errors.

 

 

Phil: Okay. Well, uh, welcome to another episode of the Consalia Sales Transformation Podcast. And I'm delighted, uh, on this occasion, uh, to welcome Eddie, um, marketing, head of marketing for Consalia, uh, to take part in what will be a trilogy of. Those with a marketing background that we thought, uh, would be good to, to host on these series.

Um, and essentially what what we're doing here is we're looking at the relationship between marketing and sales. Um, there has been, uh, a kind of. Sometimes a tension, uh, between these two functions in, in a business with sales complaining that they're not closing or getting enough qualified leads and marketing complaining that salespeople don't appreciate all of the good lead generation that they produce.

So, um, yeah. Welcome Eddie. Perhaps you could just say a few words by, by introduction.

Eddie: Thanks, Phil. Um, always strange to be on the other side of, of, uh, the screen. Normally I'm helping out with, um, the actual, uh, episode itself in the production. Um, yes, so Eddie Guevara, uh, head of marketing at Consalia, been here for about six years now.

Phil, coming up in April, uh, which is another milestone. Um, and I think Phil, I'm right in saying that I was. First marketing hire at Consalia. So definitely started from a Greenfield, didn't I?

Phil: Yes, you did. I remember when you first joined US, Eddie, and, uh, we were going through a recruitment process knowing that we needed to strengthen our marketing activities and, uh, but not really knowing.

Quite what to expect, um, just that we had to do it. And I know that for you it is probably quite a big education process you had to go through to kind of talk to us about your ideas, your philosophy, what you do when you join us, and so on. So yes. Here we are six years later. Can't quite believe that actually.

Eddie: Crazy how it's, it's flown by literally

Phil: flown by a lot's happened. Yeah.

Eddie: Yeah.

Phil: You've moved home, had a baby and done a master's.

Eddie: Yeah. Got married to, can't forget that. Otherwise

Phil: got, I got married two. That's.

Absolutely. So you've, you've done massive achievement and also made a huge difference to what we do here at Consalia. So, um, but this is a, a serious con conversation. It's, it's following up on the recent episode we did with Gareth, um, Abel, the first of the trilogy series, um, to really explore, um.

Marketing and sales together and to get the perspectives from, from a marketeer. Um, and on the last episode, um, Gareth sort of started talking about this concept of 95-5 95. Um, and, and, and that was in the context of. Sort of considering where might be the addressable market for a product or service. And 95% of the market may not be in a, in a, a position to consider or to make a buying decision.

It's really 5%. So how do you keep your brand in front of the 95% of people? Um. As well as trying to get people who are interested to recognize, you know, the brand is, is what he talked about. Anyway, so Eddie, I, I think we need to start off with, do you agree with that particular principle from your perspective?

Eddie: Uh, I mean, short answer is yes, um, caught Gareth's episode and completely agree with, with the principle itself. Um, I think it's interesting to, you know, maybe go one step further and say it's probably one of the more important concepts for anyone in a commercial role, not just, not just for marketers. Um, so as a recap, 9, 5, 5 rule, uh, comes from a, a professor called John Dos at the errand bag.

Aaron Berg Bass Institute, um, in Australia. Um, and the idea is straightforward. Uh, typically organizations will change service providers or vendors, um, once every, as an example, once every five years. That means only around 20% of buyers are in market over a course of a year. So then roughly around 5% in any, any given quarter.

Um, so. So then yes, the 95%, um, they're not comparing, uh, providers. They're not ready. Uh, they're not looking. And I think the reason why I, I agree so much about the principle itself is because it, I think it changes how you think about marketing and to some extent selling. Um, because if 95% of the people that you are, um.

You are reaching art, actively buying today. Then the activity that you, you do from the content events that you run, LinkedIn posts, conversations, um, it's not all around generating an immediate sale. It's about. Building and refreshing the memory links to your brand. And, um, you know, so when, when those people eventually do move into market, your, your name comes to mind.

Um, and, uh, I, I remember an example, back in. A couple, couple years ago when, um, I, I sort of lived that, that experience, um, I was sat in a meeting with colleagues discussing platforms for, um, a business need. Um, and we were already in stage of treating it like a, uh, a serious option for us to, to purchase.

And I realized in that meeting that none of us had ever kind of spoken to their sales team. We had no, there was no outreach to us, no demo, no cold emails, um, but. In that meeting room, their name was being spoken about. So obviously their awareness work did what it, it was, it was designed to do. And

Phil: yeah.

Eddie: Uh, we can see, because I think even in that same meeting, um, someone, someone alluded to awareness campaigns not working or not selling.

Phil: Yes.

Eddie: But we, you know, in that moment we were literal proof that, that they do. Um, of course it, like I say, it's an important principle and I agree with it. And I'm not saying that, you know, you.

Totally ignore the, the other 5% who aren't in market. Um, those people need to be served, you know, salespeople need the leads. That's non-negotiable. Yeah. Um, but I think there's a real danger where if you, if you only focus on the 5%, um,

Phil: yeah.

Eddie: You know, you start every quarter from, from scratch in a way. And I guess our job in marketing is to address the entire spectrum.

Serve the 5%. Um. With precision and, you know, knowing that we're there at the right time, um, but simultaneously investing, um, into the 95% so that when they are ready, they, they think of us first.

Phil: Yeah. Yeah. I think most people can relate to it. I mean, you could take, um, a decision, like for example, think about buying a car, you know, once you bought a car, you.

You really sort of become oblivious to the options and the cars out there on the road because you're really not in, in the market. But when you start to think, actually, I need to change my car in a year. Yeah, it's time or the lease is running out, you begin to take more notice, don't you? And you begin to exactly start to, to consider, you know, which brands you might want to follow up on and, and do your research on.

And so. Actually engaging, like you said earlier, with the sales person is going to be really as a, as a buyer quite a lot later. Mm-hmm. You know, in, in the buying cycle. And there is, yeah. And there's also data as we know, I think from, from from Gartner who's, who's also produced data to this effect. And I, I dunno if you want to kind of talk about the garner research, um, in terms of.

The stage at which buyers will want to engage with salespeople, which really, I think corroborates what you were saying earlier about this 9 5, 5 kind of rule. I can't remember the figure, but I think it's something like, Buyers do not engage with salespeople until they're more than halfway through. Is it 57% of the way through what they would consider to be a buying cycle?

Might not have got the figure a hundred percent right, but

Eddie: yeah. Yeah. No, exactly. And I think, um, I think. It's, it is important to address because I think, you know, typically in sales marketing, we, we talk about a, a funnel as such, don't we? Yeah. Um, but I think the, the, the rule itself, um, kind of questions whether or not there, there is a funnel indeed, right?

Yeah. Um, so traditional funnel, top of, top of the funnel, middle consideration. Bottoms around decision, et cetera.

Phil: Yeah.

Eddie: Um, and then the, you know, the assumption is that buyers move through this in a, in a neat, linear kind of sequence, you know, straight down. Um, but then when we, we look at it through 95%, uh, to five rule, I, I don't think that's necessarily what's happening.

And, you know, like you say, the garner research, um, alludes to that, which I'll come onto. Um, you know, the, the 95% aren't sat at the topal top of the, of a funnel waiting to be Um, brought down, you know, they're, they're living their lives, they're doing their jobs, dealing with current priorities. Um, there's no, there's technically no funnel.

to be in. Yeah, exactly. Um, and, um, and yeah, like you say, the Gartner research does back this up. Um, I'm trying to find the, uh, the stat which I, I'm sure I'll come onto, but, um, when you think about what Gartners say, um, around the buying process, it's. It, it, it, it corroborates it. 'cause it's, it's not predictable.

It's not a, a linear order. Um, I think Gartner came out with this, this concept around what they call looping, um, where they, you know, a typical buyer will revisit each of the various jobs at least once. So. Problem identification, solution, exploring, uh, requirements building, et cetera, et cetera. When they think they've nailed down the problem, they might talk to someone else.

And then that's expanded to different solutions. So then they go back to square one, right? Yeah. Um, so it's not, it's not linear from, from that, um, uh, from that extent, um, and. I often think about my own kind of experience. You know, you've alluded there to like a, a car and purchasing a car. Yes, I'm, I'm currently trying to purchase a Hoover, you know, various brands come to mind, Dyson Shark, and when I'm going through it and talking through it with my wife, who's another stakeholder.

I'm having to think, oh, well maybe we don't need all these added features. Maybe we just need something simple so we go back to square one. Um, and I think that's, that's such an important thing to, to kind of think about the fact that it's, it's, it's not linear because, um, I think particularly in sales and marketing, we're obviously, because when we try and focus on, on the 5%.

Um, we often, we often think that we're in this element of control where we can control the, the elements or the variables in, in a buyer's, um,

Phil: yeah.

Eddie: Ecosystem. But, you know, and it's something that I've learned on the masters of, obviously had to plug the masters in here, uh, Stephen Covey circle of Control. We can only really control what's In our control.

Phil: Yes.

Eddie: Um, we, we can't really concentrate on, uh, budget cycles, renewals, leadership changes, you know, that, that's, that's out of our spectrum. But what we can control is when, um, we are present when these moments happen, um, we're, we can be in control. On when we can, um, create these mental links to our brand and show up consistently enough so that when the circumstances do change, um, uh, you are already in their head.

And, um, just going back to the errand bag. Ehrenberg-Bass Institute. There's a, there's a professor there called, um, Jenni Romaniuk and I'm not sure if I'm butchering her name. Um, but she, she puts it perfectly 'cause she says, um, you can't push buyers down a funnel, but you can, you can catch buyers when they fall.

You know, you can't control when they fall, but you can control when you are there to catch them. And, um, you know, the timing's all on their front, but. Our presence is, is all on ours. So I think that's really important to, to try and remember as well.

Phil: Could you argue that it's, um, a kind of waste of time and money to invest in the 95% because it's, it's not.

It's not that well defined. So if you've got a, a sort of, um, a limited budget, you know, if it's, you know, it's difficult to argue the case, you know, and I could put myself in this position as well with a, with a CEO of a company or a head of finance saying, I think we should invest a hundred k, let's say, or whatever it might be, millions.

Um. Into a universe that's. Really not that defined, and we don't know if any of the people that we're trying to reach our brand out to have any intention at all of buying our product.

Eddie: Mm-hmm.

Phil: Um, in the hope that one or two of these may. As you say, fall.

Eddie: Mm-hmm. Um, I think it is, it's, it's definitely a, a question that will, will be on the minds of, of people like, like yourselves.

Um, but I think it is, I think it's important to, to kind of go back to principles in a way where, you know, why, why, why does a company hire. Someone in marketing in the first place, you know?

Phil: Yeah.

Eddie: Initially it's for, for growth, for revenue, profit, market share, reputation exposure, the whole spectrum. Um, and, and you know, when you ask why, why spend more in marketing?

Um, I think what you are really asking is a question about how your. How your buyers actually buy, not how the sales process says it, it should, you know, having like a quite a client-centric view towards it, because

Phil: yeah,

Eddie: I think the data out there, um, is quite overwhelming. So there was a, there was a data, a white paper from 6 cents, um, who surveyed around 4,000 buyers around how they, how they buy.

Um, and some of the key stats here, I've got, uh, 95% of winning vendors are on the day one shortlist before sales even gets involved. Uh, 94% of buying groups ranked. Vendors or the brands and organizations before first contact. Um, interestingly enough, the, the vendor that con that was contacted first wins 80% of the time.

So in a way, if you're not investing in, in that 95%, that gets you on that list.

Phil: Well,

Eddie: you're making it harder for salespeople to, to, you know, they, they're essentially fighting for scraps in a way. Um, and the research goes on to suggest that if you were to skip brand building and construct solely on cold calling, for example, uh, the survey says that's 73% of B2B buyers actively avoid irrelevant outreach.

So. You know, there, we, we, you, you could say you're wasting time. And, and to, to go one step further damaging the brand of people who are reaching out to is people who don't want to necessarily be, be sold to, right? Mm-hmm. Um, and obviously. Yes. The question is how can you invest when you can't necessarily receive returns?

Um,

Phil: yeah,

Eddie: but I think that's, that's the, the point in a way, because the, the returns won't be instant. The, the 95 to five rule says, uh, that, that, you know, 95% of the market. Ready to buy right now. The retire, the return on that comes when they move into market. So that depends on when they're ready, their budget cycle.

Um, any contract renewals, leadership changes, all the stuff that's out of our control. And I think what I hear from a lot of marketers that I speak to is too often companies aren't brave enough to stay on the course. You know, they'll. They'll run, uh, sort of campaigns for maybe three to five months or so, um, and pull it out because it hasn't yet generated pipeline.

But when they look at. Data around, uh, average sales cycles, it takes between 12 to 18 months. So it's,

Phil: yeah,

Eddie: it's, you know, a question around, well, if, what, why would, why would we think that a, a a three month campaign would deliver revenue when you are essentially measuring long-term investment with a, a short term Yeah.

Kinda ruler, right. Um. So, so, yeah, on the spot question there, Phil, thank you very much for that.

Phil: Well, no, it's, it's, uh, it's a very interested in, in the, uh, stats, was it from Sixth Sense, did you say? Or?

Eddie: Yes. Sixth Sense came out with the, the bio support. Yeah. Um,

Phil: 2025, wasn't it? That, and I wonder, so I guess, you know, what's the psychology behind someone, uh, a vendor who's first contacted being.

Much more likely to win, uh, a program. And I guess, you know, you know, people have a favorite in mind I guess, when they're filling up the short list and they would've been influenced by the research they've done, I guess. And reputation or word of mouth, you know, there could be a number of things that have influenced them at that point.

Eddie: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Uh, and I think it all comes down to, um. I guess what, not, not to throw market terminology out, but what we, what we often describe as category entry points or like specific cues. Yeah. And I think this is, so I'll come onto that, but I think this is why the 95 5 rule, um, and particularly your work with the sales mindsets, um

Phil: Right.

Eddie: Intertwined so, so well with each other. Um, so. Essentially, obviously for anyone that's listening, um, and isn't familiar with, um, your research, uh, we found that 8% of salespeople fail to beat meet buyer's expectations. Um, and when you dig into what they reject, they reject manipulations, supply centricity, complacency, and arrogance.

Um. Those who are successful show things like intellectual authenticity, client centricity, al creativity, and tactful audacity. Um, now when you look at it through the lens of something like the 95 to five rule,

Phil: yeah,

Eddie: if you are, if 95% of the market isn't buying around right now, then the vast majority of interactions that salespeople have went.

Result in an immediate deal. And that's fine. Um, the question then is like, what are those interactions building? So you can have a salesperson that, um, a conference who generally Yeah. Listens to someone talking about their challenges and Yeah. Not because that there's a, there's a deal, but because they're curious, you know, showing that authenticity.

Um, someone sharing a useful article on LinkedIn, um. You know, that's, that's, you could argue is proactive creativity. Someone Yeah. Who, um, is concerned with the buyer's world and really digs into having a, a fruitful conversation, client centricity. Um, it's around being memorable for the right reasons and yeah, I think when salespeople exhibit those sales mindsets, they actually are.

Working towards the 95% of, of the market because they might not necessarily be ready to buy, but because they're creating the relationships.

Phil: Yeah.

Eddie: Um, the link there is, is undeniable. It's, it's, it's, uh, it's a great link and I think, yeah. Going back to that professor Jenny Ook. Um, and what she talks about with category entry points, these are the, these are the cues that buyers use to assess their memories when, you know, they're, they're in a buying situation.

So, um, when an external internal trigger happens and, um, they need to think about, okay, well who am I gonna go to? Certain brands will come to mind. Yeah. Um, and others. It's been a lot of research on this, so I can happy to send it to you as well. We can link to it in show notes as well.

Phil: Yeah.

Eddie: Um, but there, her research shows that brands with wider, fresher, um, networks of, uh, these, these specific queues have higher acquisition and higher retention because

Phil: Right.

Eddie: The more buying situations your brand is linked to. Linked in a buyer's memory, the more you are likely to to come to mind. Yeah. It kind of, when you say like that, it makes, makes sense. Yeah. And I feel that's where the sales mindsets and category entry points really converge. Because every time a salesperson can show a a, a potential buyer.

Those four mindsets that, um, they want to see when being sold to or not being sold to, but they just want to see from salespeople. They are building a category entry point. They're creating a, an association in someone's mind, um, between a buying situation and, and their brand. So inevitably when they do move into market, um, they think who, who's, who can help with self performance?

Oh.

Phil: Yeah,

Eddie: it's quiet. Yeah. Not because you, you pitched to them, but because you showed up with a value consistently over, over time. And, you know, going back to what you said is, is it a waste of time? Um, I think if you, if you view it through a long, uh, if you view it through a short term, um, measurement scale, then you, you could deem it as a waste of time.

But really the returns come. When, when the, you know, when the buyer is, is ready. Um, and also with the research that I alluded to from Six Sense, they also found that 68% of buyers personally knew a seller from the winning vendor. So,

Phil: right.

Eddie: Using, you know, sales mindsets is such an important thing when it comes to, um

Phil: Right.

Eddie: The whole, the whole process.

Phil: And I guess the networking. Um, and I suppose when you, when you start to look at, you know, I'm thinking of most of the audience, uh, for our podcasts are going to be from a sort of sales background. So what sort of, what mindset do they need to have when working with their marketing teams in terms of collaborating around around.

How the market, how they can help the marketing team doing, you know, do what they want. Because I know that you're constantly chasing us at Consalia to do certain things, and we fall behind, but you make sure we're, we're on track. But, but, and also the other way round, it's this synergy that you're gonna get from both teams working together, I guess is where you get a, a, a more positive result.

Eddie: Yeah, exactly. Um, and I think maybe it's because it's what I learned on, on the Masters second shameless plug for the masters there. Um, but I think when. When both teams approach any sort of given situation with, with a growth mindset, I think anything is, is possible.

Phil: Yeah.

Eddie: Right. Because, you know, someone in the sales could come to me and say that they want to do X, Y, Z, um, and initially I might think, well, why, why were we doing that?

You know?

Phil: Yeah.

Eddie: But if I've approached it with a growth mindset, maybe there are areas where, uh, I can see the benefits and really think about ways that we can make things work and vice versa. If I've come to people in the sales team and with an idea, if they look at it with a growth mindset, they're, they are more willing to potentially learn from it.

Um, and, and more often than not, both teams are, are learning. The journey. And I think that's, that's what kind of causes a, a, a breeding ground for innovation and, you know, proactive creativity around the ideas that we can use. Because when, when you do have limited funds, like you say Phil, uh, you gotta think of innovative ways, um, that, that can help achieve an objective.

I think approaching any kind of situation, whether it be marketing or sales, with that growth mindset. Yeah. Um, you are more likely to, to be successful, in my opinion.

Phil: Yeah. Yeah. So what are some of the most successful programs you think you've run in your sort of career in marketing so far? Both at Consalia, maybe you know, prior to Consalia as well.

What, what, what, yeah, yeah. Which ones are you particularly proud of?

Eddie: Um, I mean, there's, there's, there's been a few, but I think if I focus on the, uh, three, um, which essentially is what we, we do at Consalia as well. So earlier in my career, a lot of what, um, I was involved with, particularly on telecom's side, um, was face-to-face events and networking because a lot of it was very relationship dominant, you know?

Um, and I think events work so well because they operate on. On both sides of the, the 95 to five, um, equation, simultaneously, 5% of people who are, who might be there might be actively looking to evaluate, um, a, a provider. Yeah. But more often than not, the 95% of people that are, that are there, are, are there to that catch up and talk and deepen, um, deepen relationships and

Phil: yeah,

Eddie: I think.

Um, it's, it's so important to do that because like I say, these kind of touch points build the memory links, you know? Yeah. Um, and there's been cases where in the, particularly in the telecom side, when we've run these internal events and, um, a couple months later when there's a need for a, a, a new, um, point of presence, uh, in, in Europe that, you know, a, a provider needs, they, they come to us because they know that we can, um.

That we can fulfill that need. And I think, you know, that's what we're, we're starting to do here. Well, we're not starting to do here. We, we have done for a while with, you know, the likes of GST and, you know, maybe this year now doing more sort of intimate close events with, um, smaller audiences to really deepen and strengthen the connection.

So really playing to the 95 kind of, um, rule there. Yeah. Um, but as well, one of the more kind of successful things that we've. Launched here at Consalia is around our, our sort of thought leadership content engine, you know?

Phil: Yeah.

Eddie: Um. Strategy's simple. Um, thought leadership has a content engine. You know, someone has a problem around sales performance or sales culture or leadership.

Um, they might go and search on Google, um, and if we've, if we've done our job right from a search engine optimization point of view, they'll find a podcast where we talk about it, or a blog and an article. Um, but I think what's so important and so impactful about that is that we share our. Perspective on that particular pain point.

It's, it's not, we're not selling to people through our thought leadership content. We're, we are showing them how we, how we think and Yeah. You know, again, when I go back to the sixth sense buyer, um, research, A ton of people are, are reading more. They, they want to understand how a company thinks before they approach them.

Um, so that at the moment when they do reach out to sales, they feel like they already

Phil: yeah.

Eddie: Know the company. So in, in a way, we're trying to get onto that day one short list, uh, because our content was there when they, they needed, um, needed at the most. And I think one of the more kind of emerging, uh, initiatives is, is kind of on the thought leadership.

Content engine front, but utilizing it through distribution on, on LinkedIn Organic, for example. You know, in more recent months, um, it's been exciting to see, uh, a, a lot of key stakeholders at Consalia utilize their personal profiles to talk about their thought leadership and, you know, um. Recently for us, we've had an opportunity that's come through that particular, um, channel itself.

And, you know, we, we weren't running paid ads. We, we weren't doing any sort of sponsored content. Um, but someone found out about us and how we thought about a particular problem through a LinkedIn post on a, on a personal profile. So someone in our share, in our team shared a perspective. We did, we showed up consistently posting every day.

Um. Mm. Uh, you know, and you, you, you thing is, you don't know who is viewing. You only get, you know, sort, sort of like the vanity metrics around how many people it's reached, but obviously it reached someone of importance and in that time they, you know, they either saw us when they needed us the most, or they remembered us when they, um, they had an immediate business need.

Um, so I think those three have been like the, the cornerstone of, I guess. My background in marketing, but where I've seen the most sort of success and where,

Phil: yeah,

Eddie: the 95 5 rule really, um, comes out to play.

Phil: Yeah. It is, it is interesting that you talk about, um, perseverance and, and, and consistency, you know, over a period of time is what builds the brand.

And I, I think that it's been very interesting to see, for example, our GST event, the stock exchange events now and its 20th year and it's sort of becoming an industry. Kind of standard in a way that you know, that, you know, we often hear people saying, well, actually, we build our itinerary around that event because we know we want to be there.

So people are traveling down from the north of the country. They, you know, they, they'll arrange things around it. So that it becomes mm-hmm. Part of their calendar. And, and so you can see that now in the, in the numbers of people who come to these events. So, but it's, uh, 20 years, it's quite a long time, you know, doing, it's a very

Eddie: long time.

Phil: It's a very long time. You've got to really believe, and I, I know when we started and, you know, the theater room could fit 130, I think now, and we used to get 40 people coming, maybe sort of, it takes a lot of guts really to follow. An idea, you know, over a period of time. Mm-hmm. And I guess this touches on one of the, um, last questions that we've got here is, you know, how would you convince me to spend more on marketing?

'cause I know it's, it's a challenge. You know, we're managing cash flow. You would probably argue that. That, you know, we need to spend more and more on marketing and it's, uh, it's a significant investment we make, you know, anyway, in the business. But,

Eddie: yeah.

Phil: Um, yeah. Tell us about, about convincing. How are you gonna convince me, Eddie, to spend more on marketing?

Eddie: Yep. Sort of put me on a, on the spot here, on,

Phil: on the spot here

in the public domain.

Eddie: That's okay. Um, okay. How would I convince you to spend more on marketing? Um, so I think, obviously what I've alluded to there around sort of the data points, um, on how buyers buy is something that can't really be ignored.

Of course, we've got. Approach it with a critical mindset and, you know, really scrutinize the data, the buyers that were involved in the research, et cetera. But I think it's undeniable that marketing can potentially be one of the biggest growth levers for a business if, um, if it's sufficiently invested in, um, yeah, because there's, there's no doubt we.

We experience marketing everywhere we go. You know, I'm sure on my way to work, I've seen, I don't know how many, how many billboard adverts, for example.

Phil: Yeah.

Eddie: Um, how many, um, how many adverts on my podcast have I been exposed to on the way to work? You know, all of these little interactions, which we don't necessarily take notice of.

Um, are actually building those mental links back to the brand or the organization. Yeah. And I just think that if not just Consalia, but if any organization was not to invest in 95%,

Phil: yeah,

Eddie: it would be very hard going down the line in the future. Um. To create the kind of sustainable revenue or profit that you would need to in order to keep growing.

Because I think, you know, uh, having a great. CRM of, of existing customers is great. Um, but I think what happens if they are not in market for, uh, a very long time, essentially you're going to need to go, have to go to, um, find net new customers. And the only way you can really do that, um, without being limited is, is to invest in.

In marketing, um, because there's only so much that an organic kind of approach can do, you know, um, when really what you want to do is widen your message to find the people that really do resonate with your point of view on the market, your perspective. And they are out there, you know, um. But it's just a question of how do we show up when the time is right for them?

And I think ultimately we wanna make salespeople's lives easier. Um, and so if we can, if we can use marketing in a way to keep generating more people that want to talk to us, then I think that's always a good thing.

Phil: Eddie, can we talk about sort of KPIs and metrics?

Eddie: Yeah. And,

Phil: and you know, I, you know, take your point, but when, when you're looking at.

Because as I, I think one of the things we haven't talked about actually is about the, the, um, sophistication, I guess, of marketing, you know, uh, in terms of being able to collect data. How many people listen to Sales Transformation Podcast? You know, you've got loads of different ME metrics that tell you the extent to which whatever content we're producing is getting noticed.

Could, could you spend a bit of time talking about what, for you are some of the key metrics that you might use to judge whether or not. You know that, that what you are doing is, is working or not. 'cause you can learn from things that don't work as much as things that do work. You know? So I think,

Eddie: yeah, well I think, I think for any marketer, there's always gonna be kind of, I.

How I see it is there's always gonna be primary objectives and secondary objectives. The primary ones are gonna be the ones that are clearly aligned and linked to business objectives. So

Phil: Right.

Eddie: If say, for example, we want to, uh, uh, have an additional cohort of, of students, for example, uh, for a particular program, we know that all the marketing activity that we do, um, should be geared towards.

That and obviously the, the, the overarching KPI around there, or the lagging indicator there for us would be around how many students are enrolled, but. The secondary objectives around leading indicators could be around, or how many people are visiting the program page on our website?

Phil: Yeah.

Eddie: How many people are interacting with content that is to do with the level six program or our coaching program?

How many times are we actively posting about, um, said program? Because all of these things will, um, equate to, uh, potential. New opportunities if leads come in, et cetera. I think a lot of, um, a lot of marketers can sometimes also get. Two in the weeds of marketing specific metrics. Right. Okay. Um, and I think the, the key kind of marketers that really do stand out are the ones that tie in their KPIs and OKRs to business objectives.

And maybe that's around marketing generated pipeline, for example. Um, and, uh, potentially the share of share of voice, uh, on. On, on Google, for example. So how, you know, in comparison to all of our other competitors out there, how, how much, how much share or of, of voice are we actually taking? Because ultimately that is to do with, with the market itself and not necessarily, um, business objectives, but indirectly, in a way it will be tied down to the increased growth of a, of a program.

So I think the, the most important thing is, um, for. Marketing leaders to always be transparent with these metrics because like you say, it's always important to learn from things that. Might not be working as well, as well as those that are working. Um, but equally it's, it's important for, you know, leadership to, to take a look at these, um, these metrics and, and, uh, really scrutinize and, you know.

Challenge the marketer leaders. I got, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm digging myself a my grave here.

Phil: I'm looking forward to a review with you next week.

Eddie: But, but yeah. But yeah, no, but it is important, you know, for, for business health and overall health of, of the marketing department, um, to really see what is working and what, what really isn't.

Um, because at the end of the day. We don't want to, we don't want to be known as the arts and craft department because what we, what we do in marketing really does, um, provide business value. And I think it's important for every marketing leader to, to demonstrate that on a, on a consistent basis.

Phil: Yeah.

Okay. So are there any final remarks you'd like to make Eddie, uh, before we close off this session, but, uh, I think it's been been great having you on, on, on the show.

Eddie: Yeah, no. Uh, so I think final remarks to takeaways, I would say, um. It is, it is, particularly from a sales point of view, um, you know, when we think about the 9 5 5 rule, um, it's important to think that maybe that, you know, the deal that you, you win next quarter was probably decided months ago, you know?

Yeah. Um, not in a boardroom, not on a sales call, was probably decided in those quiet, um, moments that the buyer went through. Um, and I think the, the data. Doesn't lie. Again, we can, you know, scrutinize and really be critical around the date source. But um, with some of these figures that are being quoted around 95% of winning vendors on the day one shortlist before sales gets involved, I think that's that.

That brings even more excuse for, um, salespeople to really live the sales mindsets, especially if 60, 68% of buyers personally know a seller from an organization when, um, when they go to, to, to, you know, purchase a, a product.

Phil: Yeah.

Eddie: Um, and. I think that's, that's the, the kind of key thing that I would say here, because there's, there's a lot of overlap between marketing and sales.

Um, and I think those two rules, the nine, five to five as well as the sales mindsets compliment each other very well and demonstrate why they, you know, why the emphasis. I know that the importance will always be on the 5% for short term, but for,

Phil: yeah.

Eddie: Longer term, a longer term view on not just business, but um, overall pipeline health.

Uh, it is important to consider the 95%.

Phil: And I think on the sales side, I, you know, talk about relationships and keeping those going. It's difficult to keep them going when you're not actively engaged in a project that's ongoing, you know? So. Mm-hmm. How do you, how do you keep your brand in front of people that you've met maybe years ago?

Mm-hmm. Uh, sort of over time, um, that, um and I think the work that uh Dr. Ryan O'Sullivan has done mm-hmm. You know, has been really interesting around how to become more structured in the way you start to look at relationships and manage relationships. But, and of course he's been on our podcast before. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, I like the way you've sort of connected, you know, the two.

Um, but it's not easy in this sort of technology driven world where I think these personal relationships are not as strong now as they used to be. Um, so mm-hmm. We've really got to think cleverly about how do you create those and develop and maintain those relationships over time from a, from a sales perspective.

How have we got to do our bit? Yeah. Uh, to be out there. It's too easy to jump on a Zoom call, a teams call, isn't it? And not to go to meet people in person Yes. To do that. Yeah. A lot of reasons why you shouldn't do it.

Eddie: Yeah.

Phil: But actually we should do it. You know, we should incentivize sales teams. To spend more money on taking customers out for lunch, maybe, you know?

Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Be a KPI. Um, I dunno. Uh, but yeah, I must admit I'm perhaps a little old fashioned, but I do, I do believe that those relationships are really important. Yeah.

Eddie: Yeah. No, I, I fullheartedly agree.

Phil: Yeah. Great. Okay. Well, Eddie, thank you so much. I don't think there were too many curve balls there.

Were there.

Eddie: No. No, not all.

Phil: No. Fine. Very good. Well, Eddie, thank you. I'm sure we'll see you again. Yeah,

Eddie: thanks Phil. Cheers.

Phil: Bye.

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