We have our youngest ever guest on The Sales Transformation Podcast this week, as Phil welcomes 15-year-old Johannes Hasselbalch together with returning-guest Jesper Illum to the show!
While most salespeople fall into the profession, Johannes had a passion for sales inspired by his father, leading him to go on a work experience placement with Jesper at IFS Denmark. Together they explain what this involved, how Johannes grew as a result, and his plans for the future.
Highlights include:
- [03:59] What sparked Johannes’ interest in sales
- [11:33] A surprising amount of dancing in the office!
- [20:22] Do young people still believe negative stereotypes about salespeople?
Connect with Philip Squire on LinkedIn
Connect with Jesper Illum on LinkedIn
Join the discussion in our Sales Transformation Forum group.
Make sure you're following us on LinkedIn and Twitter to get updates on the latest episodes! Also, take our Mindset Survey and find out if you are selling to customers the way they want to be sold to today.
Full episode transcript:
Please note that transcription is done by AI and may contain errors.
Phil: Right. Well, um, a huge welcome to this next edition of the Sales Transformation Podcast. And, um, I'm delighted to have on this podcast, a young man called Johannes, and Johannes is gonna say a few words about himself in a short w- while. And, um, Jesper, Jesper Illum, who's actually been on the Sales Transformation Podcast, um, uh, before.
So it's great to have Jesper back. But in this, uh, podcast in a slightly different capacity to the last time Jesper took part in, in the Sales Transformation Podcast. Um, as, as many of you know, the vision that we have here at Consalia is to help make, uh, sales the world's most sought after profession. I mean, it's, uh, it's something that, uh, sort of runs through our veins.
And as part of that vision, um, we're very keen to, um, get more exposure to the sales profession from people at a young age. And to some extent, uh, we've achieved this through the undergraduate sales degrees that we run, where we take school leavers coming from school into an undergraduate BSc program, um, which, uh, which we run as part of an apprenticeship But in this case, uh, we have Johannes with us, who is some years before leaving his school and thinking about, uh, uh, sort of an academic or the, the degree phase of his life.
And, um, and has expressed a real interest in sales at, I think, an early stage. And Johannes comes to the Sales Transformation Podcast as the, certainly the youngest ever person that's taken part in, in what we're, we're, we're, uh, in what we're doing here. So Johannes, uh, welcome. Thank you. And Johannes, I wonder if you can just say, just introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about your background and who you are, and then we'll come into more specific questions about what provoked your interest in sales.
But if you could just- Yes ... do a short introduction.
Johannes: Sure. Uh, my name is Johannes. I am 15 years old. Uh, I'm in the eighth grade. Uh, and I live, uh, a bit, uh, north of Copenhagen.
Phil: In north Copenhagen. So Jo- Johannes is not only taking part in his first, possibly his first podcast, I don't know, I assume it is your first, Johannes.
Uh, but he's also doing it in not his native language Eng- English, though I know English is one of your favorite subjects at school. So this is good practice for you. Yeah. Um, Johannes, thank you very much. Um, and Jesper, I wonder if you could just say a few words by means of introduction as well.
Jesper: Absolutely. And, uh, thanks for having me back, Phil, to the podcast. Uh, pleasure seeing you again. Uh, so I've been working in sales since, uh, 2004, originally as a sales rep, and then moved upwards into being an MD of an insurance company. I've headed up sales at SAP, and, uh, lately I've been country manager at IFS.
You know, and I, I I've been love working with sales. I probably didn't really understood what I was doing, but something was right. And then I, when I joined your Master of Science program, then I actually figured out, okay, there is some theory be- behind what I actually was doing. So I was much more able to adjust my course having that foundation under me.
So, uh, and, uh, happy to be here with you guys and, uh, yeah, also with Johannes, so.
Phil: Yeah. Well, thank you both for taking, uh, taking part. So Johannes, it's very unusual for anyone at your age, um, to know what they might want to pursue as a career. I know that when I was your age, I had no idea, uh, what I wanted to do, and I think I probably was in my early 20s before I started to figure it out.
But something about sales has obviously sparked an interest for you at this young age. So I wonder if you can share with us what sparked your interest in pursuing sales as a potential career.
Johannes: Yeah, great question. Uh, I was with my dad at his work one day and I saw what he was doing I thought it looked very interesting, so I asked him, "What did you do?"
He told me he was, uh, in sales, and yeah, that's where it started. That's where I fell in love with it.
Phil: Okay. And, uh, before you went, um, to join your, your dad for that one day, did, did you have any idea what he did, or was it just, you know, he left home in the morning- No idea ... went out No idea
Johannes: Uh,
Phil: I just thought it was interesting and
Johannes: fun
Phil: Okay.
That's fantastic. Okay. So your father obviously has been an influence and, and- Yeah ... um, uh, sort of caught your interest in sales. Um, what then took you to wanting to do work experience in sales? 'Cause I think this is how the connection is with, with Jesper. Um, how did that connection happen, Johannes? What did you do?
Johannes: Oh, well, uh, I had a school project where I had a week where I had to go into something like work, and then I asked my father if I could go into something where he was doing, and that's where we then met Jesper.
Phil: Okay. So there, I, I imagine there might be a connection between your father and Jesper in, in, in that sense.
So-
Johannes: Yeah ...
Phil: your father then contacted Jesper and, okay, over to you now. Jesper, you had this conversation. Tell, tell me, tell me about, you know, what went through your mind when you were asked if Johannes could come and do work experience.
Jesper: Yeah. So I've known Johannes, uh, both parents for many years. We've been colleagues at SAP and then lately at IFS.
And then, um, I asked a little bit, you know, what is Johannes interest in sales, and I, I started to understand that he really wanted to pursue this. And then I wondered does he actually know what it, what it means to go into sales. So I asked his parents, you know, "Can we go full flesh?" And they said, "Yeah, that's okay."
So, uh, so basically I, uh, I built up a program. He was mirroring a, uh, managing director of a software company, so basically he was following me the entire week, but a bit more than following because he also had to execute on, um, on hunting, uh, for net new, uh, customers, et cetera. So, uh, and then, uh, I built that program, but it actually become, became even more crazy than I set out.
The first one I sent to him and his parents, so Johannes was sitting on the Tuesday and he said, "It doesn't match what we are doing." I said, "No, because I wanna challenge you even more." Uh, so I had a lot of fun with it. Um, but I also, you know, when, when I can feel that people can carry it, then I like to stretch their brains a little bit and, and test out, you know, in a, in a safe environment how far can you go with people and, and bring the, the positive mindset out.
Phil: Um, yeah, there's so many things I could extrapolate from that, but, um, I mean, there, there potentially was a danger in the, in the kind of program that you had that it, it could make Johannes less confident about sales, you know, given some of the challenges that you faced. But, uh, you gave Johannes to work on, sorry Um, but, but you also talked about in a safe environment.
So how, how did you-- Could you give some ideas about the kind of tasks that you had asked Johannes to do in that, in that week?
Jesper: Yeah, so, so he knew it, it was sort of building up to end of week that he had to prepare a cold calling pitch and record a video that could be sent out to a prospect, so that was the end goal.
So basically, it was about research and understanding how a sales week, you know, what's the rhythm of the sales week and how do you build it up to that. So it constituted of, uh, prospecting, it constituted of, um, uh, meetings with customers and partners like Accenture, where he had to introduce himself in English and, uh, yeah, so he got the full flavor and into forecasting.
Of course, he couldn't do forecasting because he didn't have any pipelines, so we need to build that before he can forecast. But he was following me and, uh, you know, when we had the forecast with the AEs. So basically, all disciplines in sale in one week.
Phil: Wow! Um, Johannes, can I ask you what went through your mind when y- when, when you were presented with this as a kind of pro- program over- Um
over a week?
Johannes: Yeah. Uh, well, at the start I was, uh, shocked. It was a very packed week. I did a lot of things. Uh, but by the middle of the week, I loved it, loved every single second of it. Great experience. Met lots of fun people and great people, and had a wonderful time.
Phil: Right. It could, could've gone terribly wrong.
But was there any, any moment- S- ... where you thought this was perhaps the wrong thing to have done?
Johannes: No, not really. Not really. I really loved it. It was a really, really good week for me.
Phil: That's very good. That's, uh, that's very good. Um, Jesper, can I, can I just come back to you a- again with, with another question?
Because, um, you talked about partners and introducing, uh, Johannes to different people. Um, had you preempted those discussions at all with the people that Johannes was meeting, or did d- did you do it just in the meetings that you were having, saying you've got Johannes with you, or how did that work?
Jesper: Yeah, it was in the meetings.
I didn't give a heads-up. Uh, but you know, I, I knew, and that it would be warmly welcomed, but I also gave them the opportunity to say, "No, Johannes can't join." But that didn't happen. Yeah. 'Cause I mean, I just said I have a very young professional intern for a week that wants to, you know, really love, uh, really wanna understand the business of what we're doing.
Yeah. And then he was welcome into the meetings, so. Yeah. There was no risk in it because I said, "You can just say no." Um, so-
Phil: Yeah. ...
Jesper: it was pretty easy.
Phil: Yeah. And, um, Johannes, did any of these, um, sort of customers or partners that Jesper introduced you to, did, did they ask you any direct questions at all in it, or were you- Mm.
Not really ... playing a sort of passive, slightly passive
Johannes: behind-the-scenes role? I was just passive, uh, shadowing on the side. Okay. Just, uh, little sitting in the corner, just listening everything I
Phil: could. 'Cause I think, I think that actually sort of having, having someone like you there also shows, uh, a message to Jesper's clients that Jesper is interested in developing people and recognizing their potential, which I think is, is a great thing because I think all of us, you know, want to develop the youth of today in order to be the future leaders of tomorrow, you know?
So it's, uh, it- I'm sure that, uh, the, the clients and the partners, Jesper, saw it in a, in a positive light as well.
Jesper: Yeah. As, uh, you know, at SAP I was sponsoring the global graduate program in the Nordics, so I had like 10 to 15 people under my wings at any given time. I actually took them into customer meetings, speci- specifically difficult customer meetings, and I placed questions that they could ans- uh, ask.
So when the things got really tough, I asked the graduate in forehand, say- Yeah ... "Could you take us back to why we have this meeting?" You know, when the customer was pushing back. So it sort of, uh, defused the meeting, and, and I knew it, it was, it would be the exactly the same with Johannes, you know? Nobody got angry about having a 15-year-old boy into a meeting.
No. So, uh, yeah. Yeah. So it was, uh, in, in a controlled environment, as I said, basically. Yeah, yeah. But one thing I loved was, um, one day Johannes' mother told me when they would drove home from office and she said, "He told me they were singing and dancing in the office," the sales guys, you know? It's just like that's how we are.
We need to blow some steam in between. Do you remember that one, Johannes?
Johannes: Yeah, I do. I do.
Jesper: Mm-hmm.
Phil: So could you tell me more about that? What w- what was the occasion, or was it just, uh, spontaneous, or...?
Johannes: Uh, it was a spontaneous thing happening in the kitchen. I heard, uh, songs coming from the kitchen, and I walked out there, and they were just, uh, dancing.
Phil: They were just dancing in the kitchen. Yeah. Sounds like you got a great office environment there, Jesper. I can't say- that we've done any dancing, uh, at our office yet, but maybe we should.
Jesper: Yeah, you can, you can sell on TikTok if you dance the, uh, the sales pitch, so,
Phil: uh. Yeah, yeah.
Jesper: Mm-hmm.
Phil: Of course. Yeah. Uh, fantastic.
So, um, over the week, um, Johannes, how did you feel? You know, what did, what were some of the things that you learned?
Johannes: Oof. Uh, I learned that communication was, uh, very, very important. I learned that, uh, you have to work as a team together to accomplish things.
Phil: Yeah.
Johannes: Uh, and then I learned that you use tools like AI to make it easier.
Phil: Right. Right. And is there anything you learned about yourself that you didn't know before?
Johannes: Hmm. Yeah. Uh, I'm, uh, not really that confident around, like, uh, strangers. That's something I definitely need to work on. I was a bit quiet
Phil: Well, I think at your age I was incredibly nervous. So the fact that you were, uh, sort of in the thick of things, I, I think, uh, yes, it is, it's, it's a natural thing to have as well.
I mean, it's, it certainly sort of not in your comfort zone. But it's interesting what you say about new people as well. Yeah. Um, so you, you, you need to work o- you need to work on that. Yeah. But the fact you're doing the podcast and the fact you've gone through it is a pretty good indication you're sort of building up your confidence in being put in slightly-
Jesper: Yeah
Phil: unusual situations, so to speak. Yeah. Um-
Jesper: But, but it was a crazy evolution over the week because the Monday you were very quiet, and on the Thursday I had a town hall meeting for all employees. I asked you to stand up and introduce yourself in English, and you did. So I mean, that's, that's, that takes- a lot of guts to do that. So,
Phil: yeah. Yeah, it really does.
Jesper: Mm-hmm.
Phil: Were you nervous when you did that, Johannes? Or did the, did the singing in the kitchen help, uh, diffuse all those, uh, relationships, uh,
Johannes: issues? I was a little nervous. Little, little bit nervous.
Phil: Yeah. How long did you present for?
Johannes: Oh, God, 30 seconds, 40 seconds.
Phil: Okay. Not, not too long, but it- No ... it was still in front of a group of, um, uh, what shall I say? Probably fairly flamboyant, uh, outwardly speaking salespeople as well at that meeting. Yeah. That's amazing. So y- so Jesper, you saw a big evolution in Johannes over the week.
Jesper: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. I did, I did. And, and, you know, it was also, yeah, it, it was also to sort of show him the direction into sales, so you know.
Yeah. Understanding the full process, then coming out of it. Right. And seeing do you still have the appetite. And I mean, the discussions we had over the week, Johannes, it showed me that the more you understood what we were doing, the more you actually wanted it. So there was, uh, I love that because you can also see people who has a dream but don't understand what the, what's behind the dream.
Yeah. But now you can really understand the dream. So, so, so I had a lot of fun, but I also, I, I tr- I learned a lot about myself when doing, when developing other people. Yeah. Because I need to question myself and, and, and Johannes questioned me. You know, "Why do you do this, Jesper?" I've been doing that for 20 years, so I need to think about why I do it and maybe do something differently.
So I was evolving together with Johannes, and I loved that. Yeah. Mm.
Phil: Yeah. Yeah, we hear that on some of, um, some of our undergraduates who are 18, so they're three years older than you, Johannes, but they're still quite young. Um, y- uh, sort of working in teams of salespeople where the average age could be 50, you know, quite.
And it's, it's quite interesting because, um, you, you hear the, uh, the practices of the 50-year-olds being challenged by the younger perspective, and they, they, they often question, and a basic question like, "Why do you do it like that?" You know, makes them think. Uh, and I know that, um, I know that there's benefits obviously for the younger people learning from people like Jesper who are very experienced, but there's also this benefit of seeing the world through the eyes of someone fresh and, uh, with a very much an open mind as well.
So- Um, what, um, you know, from your work experience, Johannes, what, what are the, uh, what, what do you think are the critical skills needed, you know, for people to be successful in sales?
Johannes: Uh, you need to be confident. Uh, you need to be able to, people be able to trust you. Uh, and you need to be able to communicate and have a strong team to work with.
Phil: Yeah.
Johannes: And be able to listen to the customer.
Phil: Yeah I know part of, part of what Jesper mentioned earlier was about sort of forecasting and, and looking at the data side of things as well. Um, Jesper, I mean, uh, did you, did you sort of cover that topic with Johannes? 'Cause I'm just thinking of Johannes has got, uh, skills in mathematics and, and I guess, you know, I'll be interested to, to hear what you shared with Johannes about forecasting and so on.
Jesper: Well, it was, to be honest, Phil, I, I've done it completely different than the industry for many years. Coming back to us at Pia said to them, "You're not gonna get a spreadsheet guy. You will have a sales leader who loves to, you know, develop their sales team." Right. Yes, I will do forecasting, but I'll do it because my team involves me.
Because when they need to play ball, then I understand- Right ... the opportunity. So I do it from an opportunity development position. Of course, you need, need to look at data, but I didn't focus on that together with Johannes, because for me- Yeah ... if you start by learning that, y-
Phil: Yeah, yeah ...
Jesper: then you're off to the wrong track.
You need to understand the people, the cases, and then you can start looking at data.
Phil: Then start looking. No, I know. Yeah. There's so much, uh, uh, it's a big topic. As we know, it's a big
Jesper: topic.
Phil: It is. Yeah.
Jesper: It is. And can you calculate mathematically, you know, where you'll end in seven months? No. Yeah. You can have a good view on it and data can support you.
Phil: Yeah.
Jesper: But we, we talked about in the prep that AI will do a difference, but it's still the personal touch on top that makes- Yeah ... the difference in sales, and I still believe that is true tomorrow.
Phil: Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I'm... Yes, I, I, I agree. Okay. So Johannes, you went on the work experience week. Um, and tell me what your thoughts are now about sales as a careers.
Has, has the experience put you off sales, or do you think you're really gonna go for it?
Johannes: I do believe I'm still going to go for it. Uh, it was a very, it's a very exciting route to go down sales. Yeah. But it's also a bit challenging. Uh, but, uh, I think personally that it's a very great route, and I- personally wanna go down it.
Phil: Yeah. So when you talk to your classmates about what you've done and what you've experienced, uh, what's been the reaction with your, with your friends about what you've been up to? Have, have you shared with them the detail- Yeah, yeah ... of this challenging week you've had?
Johannes: Uh, well, they're very supportive.
Uh, they thought it was very great. Uh, they're all doing different things, uh, but, uh, they're very supportive.
Phil: Oh, great. Well, I hope you can become a young ambassador for sales and spread the word amongst your colleague. I'm sure you will be, uh, during the course of your, your, your, your time. Um, one of the things that we talked when we, about when we, uh, prepared for this session was about some of the negative stereotypes that exist out there.
You know, people, you know, often think, "Do you really want to go into sales?" I mean, it... Could you tell me if you've experienced that kind of reaction in any way?
Johannes: I've only experienced it maybe once or twice. Uh- Okay ... there's just people that get the wrong input of what sales is.
Phil: Yeah.
Johannes: And just follow stereotypes.
Phil: Yeah. Yeah. And what is it that do you think that, that perhaps gives sales a bad reputation?
Johannes: Well, many people say it as people who just call you and try to sell you something, like you don't need, maybe just a useless thing.
Phil: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so they're
Johannes: sort of- And are very pushy. Pushy ...
Phil: pushy, you know, sort of fairly pushy, fairly, fairly manipulative-
Johannes: Yeah
Phil: kind of techniques that they use to try and get you to, to buy something, which you see all the time actually, whe- whether you're in a shop or you know, we all experience being sold to by people who are good and people who are not so good. But, um, my experience is there's a lot of people associate selling with- Certain types of salesmanship or salespersons, um, who tend to follow that kind of sales approach, and they, they brand all sales like that.
But as you've recognized from what your father is doing and what Jasper is doing, it's a, it's a much more professional kind of process. Um, and, you know, I think you also mentioned the last time we spoke about it sort of solving problems, you know- Yeah ... for, for, for customers and, and clients. Um, what do you think are some of the most important traits then, I think, but, you know, that, that, that, that people need to have to be great in sales from your experience?
Johannes: Uh, well, uh, you need to be confident. Uh-
Phil: You said confident earlier, yeah.
Johannes: Yeah. And then you need to have integrity, and you n- need to be able to get the customer to trust you.
Phil: Yeah. And what do you think builds trust?
Johannes: Oh, well, uh, it's talking with people, meeting them.
Phil: Yeah. Yeah.
Johannes: And then being honest.
Phil: And, and being, and being honest with them.
Yeah. Very good. Um, so, um, I don't know if you've-- So it looks like you're gonna pursue a career in sales. You've got a few more years to go yet at school. Um, have you got any other thoughts about how you might, um, prepare yourself for a career in sales?
Johannes: Uh, yes. Uh, there is a line on a different school after I finish the ninth grade where there is a business line I could take where I could learn about business, sales.
So
Phil: you'll go into a business line, yeah, degree. Now, very good. And it may be at some future occasion, Johannes, you'll be able to join us on one of our master's programs in sales leadership. You, you'll have to give us a call when you think you might be ready for that. Jasper, any, any comments, any further comments you'd like to make about, about Johannes and what he's doing and what he's done and-
Jesper: Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Um, I, I, I have a lot of comments, but I'll, I'll try to keep it short. Um, so, so, so I mean, I, I love the fact, and that's also why I reached out to you, Phil, to discuss having this, uh, podcast. Yeah. I wrote to you, "I have a crazy idea," and you wrote back to me, "It's not really crazy." 'Cause I wanted to, I wanted to- Yeah
sort of have other people see the potential path into sales. I mean- Yeah ... working in sales for plus 20 years, we all- Yeah ... stumble into it. Uh, at SAP I had a pre-, former priest, a geology student, and all sorts of backgrounds. But what if we can get people to actually get an education, uh, which you're a strong advocate for- Yeah
in sales. Uh, I, I had to go via marketing, and, and marketing is so much different than sales. Uh, so I wish I had somebody who would show me the direction early on. Um, so, so I think that- that's, that's one, uh, learning I had, and I, and I love that. Um, the second thing is a personal thing that Johannes has helped me with.
Phil: Yeah. '
Jesper: Cause I'm actually taking a change in my career now. Yeah. Shifting into becoming a chief consultant in a small firm that helps, uh, educate and train people in sales. So once you've done your strategy, then take it and transform it into sales. How do you do the cold calling? How do you follow up? How do you challenge the customers?
Uh, yeah, so, so I, I've developed myself also based on that week. Um, yeah.
Phil: Yeah. I think your, your comments are so, uh, kind of so, you know, uh, so resonate very much with me. Uh, you know, I, yes, uh, I thought I wanted to go into marketing at a very young age. So I, I was, I was in banking first and then went in to pursue a career in marketing.
And so I thought, but actually when I got into this consultancy, it was a Swedish consultancy called Mercuri.
Jesper: Mm-hmm.
Phil: I don't know if you've heard of Mercuri. I believe they have offices also in, in Denmark, but- They
Jesper: do, yeah.
Phil: Um, they have two, they had a training division, and they had a recruitment, uh, division.
And I joined Mercuri at a very young age. I was 22, 23. Normally, they take, took people on who are a bit older than that, you know, sort of in their early 30s And, um, realized that actually it was sales that they wanted me for, even though I, I didn't see myself in, in, in that role. And, uh, yeah, it, it, uh, o- I sort of fell into it completely by accident.
Um, and it was, in that sense, it was sort of an unstructured introduction to sales. The advantage, Johannes, that you've got is, uh, if you know that that's where your sort of end destination is going to be in a, in a sales career, you've got all sorts of avenues where you can, uh, keep, uh, abreast of what's happening in sales.
You know, we've got podcast channels like the one we're running. Mm. But there are many other, you know, sources of information that can guide and in- and inspire you in that. Mm. But yeah, I mean, it's, uh, yeah, it's an amazing profession to be in. Um, it's, uh, it's been around for very many years, but it's, uh, it doesn't have the same, uh, status perhaps unless you go to America.
It doesn't have the same status as perhaps other professions do, like medicine or, uh, or perhaps engineering. But, you know, if you don't sell anything, no business will function. So arguably, it's the most important function of, of any business. Mm. And, uh, so that's why I think it's so great that you've sort of embraced it at, at your age.
Yeah. Jesper, I'm very excited about the new direction you're going in as well. It's been an extraordinary journey for you. I didn't think we'd be talking about this on the podcast, 'cause it's, uh, it's, uh, it's quite a new thing. Um,
Jesper: yeah. Yeah. It is. It is. I mean, my motivation for many years has been to make other people successful.
Phil: Yeah.
Jesper: And, uh, uh- Yeah ... and one of the epiphanies I got from the master's program was, you know, you need to train people. I mean, my daughter plays badminton at the highest level. They don't go and get enabled in badminton. They practice and train it every day- with a, with a coach and trainer. Yeah.
So I thought maybe I can go out and, and inspire and help even more people than I do- Yeah ... today with just my own team. Yeah. So, um, yeah. That's- So that was actually time to, uh, to try that, and I, the response from the network has been absolutely amazing. I mean- Oh, good ... I just started talking about it, and then I have already three or four customer meetings booked.
I haven't even started yet, but it's in the calendar. So, uh, so that's pretty cool.
Phil: Oh, fantastic. Mm. That's brilliant. Um, okay, well, I think we're getting towards the end of the podcast now. But, um, Jesper, thank you so much for reaching out. I was delighted actually when you suggested the idea, um, because it's a topic that's really close to my heart.
And, and Johannes, I have to thank you for taking part in the podcast, um, and sharing. Yeah. And it's kind of motivated me to see if we can reach out to other younger people such as you to, to, um, yeah, catch them at a younger, younger, you know- Yeah ... at a younger age really. So, uh, this podcast will also help communicate that message.
Um, but thank you very much.
Jesper: Thank you, Phil. Pleasure being- Mm ... again with you.
Phil: Yeah.